Complete novice and advice sought

For the discussion of liveaboard specific topics.

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FSDSMAN
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Complete novice and advice sought

Post by FSDSMAN »

Now you will all think me totally mad and foolhardy but I have a dream.
Due to recent developments and a marriage that has amicably come to an end after 30 years (mutual and not aggressive decision) and indeed are still friends if that is possible I find myself in a position to live a dream.
I wish to purchase a sailing yacht, live aboard (most of the time) and have some freedom to do local and extended cruises as and when money and time denote. I have read numerous forums, posts advice on this but found this site and "Jeff's" blogs’ an insight and helpful diary of what to expect. I cannot simply disjoint myself from shore life and responsibilities for financial reasons and need to work however I am self employed in the IT support role and manage most of my clients remotely with occasional site visits so I am quite flexible as to where I can work etc and probably could obtain a serviced office to conduct my work ashore within a clients premises as they owe me big time.
OK MY DREAM.
I think I would need a yacht of around 37-42 feet for comfort and also a salon head clearance (I am 6ft 2ins when I wake up but shrink about half an inch during the day) of around 1.94 meters and above headroom.
Yacht types etc is not what this post is about as we all have preferences in make, type etc but I will still listen to advice - just might not take it.
I think my budget on a yacht would be in the region of 30 - 42 thousand and also i would put aside and pay for a marina birth for a year in advance out of separate funds and required maintenance, upgrades etc.
Now the real advice I require:
On approaching a few marinas I get the response of "we don not allow live aboard here" Now that I can understand for various reasons and I would not envisage abusing the purpose of the marina as simply a permanent residential mooring. This is far from what I wish to achieve and the main reason for choosing a large CAT1 sailing cruiser - I wish to use it as such when I am competent enough. So marina attitude? If anybody knows of more tolerable places to birth that do not dry out in SE England - advice would be appreciated.
My experience in sailing? A complete novice. All I have sailed in the past are the usual Mirror dinghy’s Enterprises, Miracles etc a long time ago and was also in the Sea Scouts for several years and have some very basic knowledge of navigation and also have built a number of small dinghy’s with work groups etc. Far removed from what I plan but at least I understand the direction the wind comes from.
I also have built and studied period sailing ships at dockyard scale so understand rigging, construction etc but most of that is irrelevant to today’s boats.
So my current plans of action? Find a suitable boat, find a suitable mooring, make the required repairs and get the required experience. All of which I am positive I WOULD FIND ENJOYABLE - JUST WHERE TO START.
Last part and probably the most crazy is purchase a boat in the Med as around 1/3rd the price of identical boats in the UK (VAT PAID) Get a crew to sail it back and me join the boat at stages to assist and learn at the same time and get the mileage and experience in to pass required exams and know how to handle my boat in UK waters.
I do not take this as a pipe dream and I am currently forcing the process to happen within the next 3 months.
All advice is well received.
My First Album I purchased was “Madman across the water” by Elton John.
Please do not shatter my dreams – just help me make them happen.
Regards
Mark
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Post by Discus »

I don't think anyone here will shatter your dreams - you may well get a friendly reality check though!!! :lol:. A couple of observations - Almost all marinas will say no if you approach them with a plan of living aboard. This is to prevent someone rocking up in an old tub that will stay permanently moored there, slowly going back to nature with the owners bits and pieces eventually spilling out onto the pontoons. It should be possible to live aboard an 'in commission' yacht full time without drawing negative attention to yourself, especially if you take it out sailing on a regular basis. If you are going to be single handed - and a relative novice, I would suggest a smaller boat, you really won't need 37-42 feet, in fact it may become a psychological and financial barrier to actually sailing it. There are plenty of sub 35ft boats that will give you the headroom you require - our last 2 boats had standing headroom and I am 6'3". If in doubt, look for a deck saloon yacht. Buying a yacht in the Med can be a short cut to a bargain - but very rarely so. The cheapest bargains are in the eastern Med which is nearly 2500 miles from the UK and the bit from southern Spain will be mainly upwind!! Many of these 'bargains' have spent years in the sun with only light maintenance and will need a fair amount spending on them. Factor in the cost of getting a delivery crew to bring it back and the costs of flights for viewing and purchase costs, the price differential starts to decrease quite rapidly.
I would book myself on to a day skipper theory course, that will give you enough of the collision regulations and rules of the road to get you started. I would then start viewing some potential boats to get a feel of what you like and don't like. Ask lots of questions and budget to not overspend. Remember BOAT does stand for Break Out Another Thousand!!

On the whole though, just o for it! :rabbit:

Rob
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Post by FSDSMAN »

Hi Thanks.
Well the yachts I am looking at are Beneteau (oceanis pref) Jeanneau, Bravaria. I am budgeting in around 4-5k per year for maintenance and guessing at the cost of getting one back to the UK at around 5K
I fully intend to do the Day Skipper course and I am reading up almost every day on collision avoidance etc. My time scale that I have roughly worked out is about 6 months after I have the boat in UK to complete the required repairs etc and try and blagg as many crewing trips on other boats as possible during that time. Also if the yacht is more or less ready to sail then pay for a skipper to take it out etc with me along so I learn the ropes so to speak and how she handles. At my age I think this would be my one and only boat so I am keen to get something that I can grow into rather than start with something easier to handle then change later.
Another option is a damaged boat in the uk and I am sure you have all seen it - the 2005 Bravaria 42. I know a place where this could be stored ashore with full workshop facilities there but also would allow a "live aboard" on the wreck so I could actually live on it (for most of the time) while repairs are undertaken. Again this might be madness as the hull is severely damaged, has no keel and steering gear missing but I would not have a clue as to the cost of getting the hull repaired and if then after a repair would it be insurable? I have during my time done most trades associated with maintenance, plumbing, wiring, electrics etc and could do a lot of repairs myself that are simple and I am under no illusion that a yacht regardless of what age is a buy and forget project - more like keeping a classic car or aircraft working - fix one thing and another goes wrong.
If anybody has ever carried out major hull repairs etc then I would like to hear from them.
But I guess sensibility may prevail and get a boat from the UK but looking at most they are about 40% over priced at the moment unless the asking price is just a starting gambit.
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Post by Discus »

Hi Mark.
The boats you are looking at will offer all the things you need for a live aboard and are generally plentiful on the second hand market so you shouldn't be too short of options. I would disagree with the fact that UK boats are overpriced, in fact, in the UK the second hand market tends to push prices down, particularly for production boats. Asking price is a starting point but you would be doing well if ou managed to secure greater than 5-7% off the asking price of a post 2000 production cruiser. There is always a reasonable demand for them. Initially, prices may look a lot lower if you buy in the Med and are looking at ex charter boats. Many of these have had a hard life and have sailed the equivalent of 20 years or more of 'average' sailing. You would be looking to budget for replacement sails and major engine overhaul minimum. This will rapidly erode away any potential price differential.
With regard to the Bavaria 42 that has been damaged - the damage is repairable but difficult to complete. Bavarias of this vintage were built with a webbed/honeycombe floor above the keel to add strength and keep weight down. This is notoriously difficult to repair. In addition, the interiors were fitted and bonded prior to the deck being fitted. They are difficult to remove and reinstate without damage. The hulls were vacuum bagged in the moulds which makes hand layup repairs more difficult as you cant replicate the way in which the boat was originally manufactured. The keel is missing, a replacement is not obtainable from the manufacturer so you would need to have a mould built and the keel cast and dressed by a foundry. This is big money. The steering on the 42 was twin wheel so you would be looking at another 6k to reinstate it. The wheels alone are big money. The whole thing would be a serious undertaking for a shipright in a fully kitted out yard - not a project you should consider.......ever!!! Plenty of Bavarias about with all their bits still attached. You don't say if you will be single handed or not, if you are then I would really set a limit of 35ft. Any bigger and you will want to take crew which can be difficult to smoke out sometimes.

Rob
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Post by FSDSMAN »

Well what you said is what I feared about the Bravaria - guess that is why it has been on sale for 2 years. Had an email from the seller and it seems it has been stored outside for that time so I would suspect the foam core is drenched. It also has no sails etc so is just a lump of rotting damaged glass and the price at £16,000 is a joke.
I will not be sailing single handed (unless the current relationship goes bottoms up :D ) and she has less experience than me and would sink a cork in a bath tub but we are keen to learn and change our life.
I am not afraid of hard work or roughing it (my current pride and joy is a 10 man British army arctic bell tent complete with wood burner and love the outdoor life in that) and that would def have to be accommodated on the boat and a tender to carry the bloody thing but ingenuity and thinking off tangent has enabled me to make it into a bloody good bit of kit and it will handle what ever is thrown at it. Great amusement was had by spectators at RIAT this year when we tried to put the tent up but after a struggle of a few hours we achieved what we wanted - later that day and with a bit of improvising we was laughing at almost every body else but made friends with all and I could have sold the tent 50 times over.
Years ago I read an article in a yachting magazine about a man that sailed round the coast of Devon and Cornwall in a day sailor but pulled ashore each night and pitched his tent or tied up at a local port etc and stayed a night when able. I guess that idea has been embedded in my head for the last 30 years or so - but not in a day sailor.
I have family in Devon and my Parents live in Cornwall and my mother still very active in the RNLI at Bude but we all started from "Invicta" county but I am the only one left.
This will be a major life change for me and the investment I make means no turning back so all advice help will be received with open arms, ears and hopefully my brain.
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Post by Jeff »

Good luck with your plans! Just read through the thread and I will leave you in Rob's capable hands. You know a lot about boats Rob!
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Post by FSDSMAN »

Well just had a look at a Beneteau Oceanis 39 and a Bavaria 36 Cruiser. Both were in budget - the German mass produced charter boat - very very small but 2003 and reasonably tidy but it will have problems (rudder bearings etc) The Ben - well a 1988 boat and not used much and needs a bit of money spent livening it up but most things done structural and costly etc over the last 6 years - epoxy etc but that can hide a lot of things until a full survey is done but I still feel after spending time on them they are small. The Ben is a good boat but feel that I would need something 5 feet bigger. Now I know I would have to adjust my lifestyle but I do not see the logic (apart from additional cost for marina, maintenance etc) of why go for a 35/36 foot boat? I am not gonna try and moor it in a small shallow creek or take it out if the forecast is bad - or disappear from land until I know what I am doing. How you feel inside something that you intend to” live in” is important to me and I have a great army tent that I adore and feel that I could live in that and accept the associated hardships sent my way but a boat that makes you feel that you want to be "top side" all the time just don’t feel right.
Anyway I digress - it will happen and the choice is now out of my hands and I am fully committed to finding a boat within the next 6 weeks and also spending at least 2 weeks during that time having a crash course on a few things.
Don't worry - what ever I purchase I will let the forum know the name of the boat so you can keep an eye out and avoid it if you see it dragging an anchor in some sheltered bay and a symmetrical Genoa spilled over the side because we don’t know how to set them or take them down.
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Post by Jeff »

FSDSMAN - that's why we've ended up on a boat with a wheelhouse. You get the benefits of living on a boat with the benefits of having a conservatory!

The reason people generally tell you to avoid anything much about 35 feet is because the costs tend to start going up exponentially. Berthing fees sometimes move into a different bracket for vessels above that length, you need a LOT more antifoul, rigging, fuel, heating etc. Insurance is considerably higher. And when things go wrong, it tends to be scary money to sort them out.

You do get used to living in a smaller space.

Many people said to us to try to avoid the whole "if only it was just a _little_ bit bigger" trap. Unless you're living on a massive Dutch Barge, it's always going to feel small compared to a land based dwelling.

We lived for three years (ish), including winters in a 30 footer. With a dog. It did feel a bit tight at times but we managed. A 35 footer was a distant dream to us at the time.

Hate to say it but if living accommodation is your top priority, and because you have no sailing skills as yet, have you considered a motorboat? You get a lot better living space for the length and there are some real bargains around. Much less to learn before you put to sea also - and once you've cut your teeth in a mobo, you could 'upgrade' to sails later.

Watch out for high diesel prices though when you're chugging about! They seem to really glug it down those mobos.
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Post by FSDSMAN »

Hi Jeff,
I thought about a motor - but only VERY briefly. No sail is the thing I want. I used to go sailing all be it in miricles, mirror's, enterprises etc at least 3 time a week when younger and also I think the challenge of new skills is what really apeals also rather than just turn the key - I have a car for that. No I appreciate the drain that a larger boat can be on the wallet but I guess it is the internal layout of the boats that seem almost always geared up for charter. The Benneteau Oceanis 39 would be a reasonable boat space is wasted on having 2 heads with showers with 2 beds. I would have rather had one head and a larger cabin on a boat that size - hell my current abode has 3 bedfrooms and that has only got one john.
There is an old Bavaria 44 up for sale but reports and looks seem to be good. Now that has only 2 cabins - all I require really is an extra cabin for guests if they visit but the rear cabin is center line and well appointed. It is just in my budget if I can get a deal on it and it is in Ostende so would not cost too much to pay a skipper to bring it back to Chatham if that is where I end up. Been looking in this country for months and all seem small or silly day dream money. An example is I can get a Jenneau Sun Fast 41 which is 4 years newer that the Benneteau, had a new teak deck last year and new engine last year and the cost including stepping mast, road transport back to Chatham etc works out 2K less than the Ben.
Still looking very hard so if you know of something I am all ears.
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Post by Jeff »

Have a look at some other makes/models. Don't lock yourself down too much. I never thought I'd buy a Nauticat, until I looked at one.

Do also absolutely know that whatever you buy you'll almost certainly want to spend a considerable amount on it shortly after. Maybe budget 10 to 20% of the boat value to have on hand. And then perhaps consider you may even need 10% of value per year for upkeep (this is pessimistic but better to be safe than sorry!)
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Post by FSDSMAN »

Well just had the owner of the Oceanis come back with a counter offer so I am going to make another offer on it and if accepted subject to survey I will buy it. They are big 39 footers so a 41 or a 42 is not going to give me much more space. This boat features all new electronics from 2009, hull has been epoxy treated and it is lifted out the water every winter. If I can get it for the price I want then that saves me around 13K on what I was going to spend on other boats. Because it just falls under the 40 foot it is cheaper in the marina's etc. Engine has been serviced regulary, standing rigging replaced in 2010, So just have to wait and see.
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Post by Jeff »

Sounds good! Keep us posted!
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Post by FSDSMAN »

Right OK. Deposit paid on a 1988 Beneteau Oceanis 390 Owners version but lots of money spent on her over the last 6 years and hardly ever used, RADAR, plotter/gps Garmin GPM 4010, Raymarine ST60'sTarget Navtex reciever Icom DSC VHF all less than 4 years old. Need to get a life raft, tender and outboard and possibly some new sails (dacron from 1996) but almost every thing else replaced onwards from 2009 including standing rigging, hull epoxy etc. So just wait the result of the survey but would appreciate advice on a tender and ISO lift raft.
So the journey begins.
Going to re-name the boat also - "Chapter One"
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Post by Terry T »

And now for the reality check....... throwing a dinghy around a few cans bears no relation to handling a 35to40 ft heavy keel boat . I had the stern of my boat wrecked this summer by someone who thought it was !!
Please don't try to run before you can walk . You don't need a large boat to live afloat . you can never recreate shore living space in a boat so don't spoil your dream by going too large too soon .

Edit ....... Oops looks as if my advice is too late !!
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Post by FSDSMAN »

I have booked up Fast Track courses and I DO NOT INTEND to sail or move the boat untill I have at least passed day skipper. I would not jump into an articulated class one lorry and set off because I can drive a car.
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